Curse

HawkofStorms · Jun 21, 2008, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Like with all groups of people...
Not everybody in a group is homogenous. Look at any election. 49.9%/50.1% splits. People disagree. Some stuff that pleases some people can anger other people and still make sense.

MisterT69 · Jun 21, 2008, 02:29 AM // 02:29

/agree with post. People whine way too much about this game when they don't get what THEY want, yet the majority does. A-net's doing what they think is right, and it's not for us to judge. They can change the game however they want since they have total control over it. Just because you don't like the SF update means A-net MUST nerf it in order to satisfy you and piss off all the other SF farmers out there, just to make ONE person or a few people happy.

Dark Paladin X · Jun 21, 2008, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Change one thing, group A complains.
Change it back, group B complains.
Do nothing, everyone complains.

Well, that's the problem, everytime something changes, one group accepts and other group get pissed. Everyone does agree that not everyone can agree in one thing. ANet is doing what's best for everyone, although they do know that not everyone will accept it. For example, lots of farmers (including me) is hyper-glad that Shadow Form got a massive buff for the first time, and thus make getting ectos and shards a bit easier (as well as making the 55 monk obsolete), but in return, there are some group of people who do not like this update as they feel that there will be lots of people walking around with obsidian armor and having the armor no longer the "elite" status (as well those who use ectos traditionally as currency).

Let's take the recent decision to make gay marriage legal issue in California as an example. While most homosexuals are glad that they can get married, many religious conservatives respond and fervor anger (particularly Westboro Bapitist Church). The reason that the state court decide to legalize same-sex marriage in the state is because they are trying to do what is the best for everyone (just like in the 1950s-1960s of ending unjust racial segregation), which of course, California is highly socially liberal compared to most other states. Like in the situation here, ANet decided to have two different versions of certain skills because they feel it fits the satisfation of both PvP players and PvE players (particularly farmers). So in general, PvP get some benefits (like the nerf on "for great justice" finally gives some relief to AB players when it comes to dragon slash) while PvE get some benefits as well. Not everyone will agree, but ANet will try to the best of the interests of the players. Unlike Adolf Hitler, who only made changes only for the benefits of non-Jewish whites because the German people wanted so while ignoring the minority's needs. Remember, you should listen to the majority, but respect the minority.

MithranArkanere · Jun 21, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43

You are not 'Us'.

So far they've made all I wanted them to made, excepting a couple of things.
I'm sure those things will come too.

strcpy · Jun 21, 2008, 02:54 AM // 02:54

As someone who has managed a large commercial software project in the past (not a game) you should *always* listen to *all* customers. However, customers should realize that "listen too" doesn't mean "do what I say" - I can perfectly well listen to every word you say, go seriously think about it for a few days, and come back with a "No, that isn't part of my software".

Lots of things are cleared up by nice little things like server logs and sales numbers. Those will tell you more than anything we can sit and argue. Say, for instance to following post above me:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Ecto's are the main currency in High-End trades in GW. EVERY played most likely has 10+ ecto's in his bank

That's a fairly strong thing to say and Anet actually knows the answer. It does little to his arguments if not true. When I was the manager of that product I always found it highly amusing all the usenet and e-mail messages I got about something killing my software and how to "fix" it when server logs showed those people to be...amazingly inaccurate and focused so much on their selves that they couldn't see anything else.

Listening also tells them if what they want to happen is working. Loot scale is a great example. They said they have two intentions, one is to hurt gold farmers and the other is to significantly close the earnings gap between casual and non casual farmers. Given that the main complaint that goes into hundreds of posts is that hardcore farmers can not make much more than casual ones I'm sure they listened the whole time.

Then, also not really covered, is even when the community was mostly united they often do not really know what they want. It's not that people are dumb but that people are not trained to think through the consequences of their actions. A great example of this is locked gates - until factions the single most requested change was that each area was only enter able if you had done all the stuff previously to get there. This would supposedly make all players in later outposts good players and no one would dislike it. Very few pointed out that most of the people being run were experienced players going around content they didn't enjoy and you can't stop bad players from progressing (they will always be drug along when they join an otherwise competent group) and they were mostly called stupid. Turns out they weren't so stupid. This was also a great case of Anet simply "listening" and was probably the last time they really did so - it probably cost them a few million in sales and still creates a mostly dead game from the middle on.

There isn't anything you can do about it - it seems to mostly be human nature. The software I wrote was for academics working in High Performance Computing and they were every bit as bad as here. Large projects either learn these lessons (as Anet did over the locked gates thing - Nightfall did it less and EOTN went back to all open) or die. The vast majority of people understand this too when reading forums about games. I think many know that what they want is selfish but think if they do enough negative posting that a company will cave trying to stop it and (again as Anet learned with the whole locked gates thing) that bad press will cost you WAY less than making a bad core game decision and the huge flood of bad press and poor sales.

wetwillyhip · Jun 21, 2008, 03:51 AM // 03:51

to the orginal poster of this thread, I agree with you 100%, however, as its been possibly mentioned, there will always be someone unhappy with the game, life, politics, the economy, NO MATTER WHAT you do. Therefore, Anet will always have ppl pissed and others happy. Now that change has occured, Ppl that were wanting changes will be quiet now, and ppl that didn't want changes who were quiet, are pissed and are speaking their voices now. It happens everywhere.

ShadowsRequiem · Jun 21, 2008, 03:58 AM // 03:58

You should know this by now... THERE will always be people who are going to bitch and moan whenever there is a new update. It's called an OPINION.

Avarre · Jun 21, 2008, 03:59 AM // 03:59

The community is free, in fact I would even say encouraged, to give opinions regarding changes.

From there, it is the job of the CR team to determine which opinions are the most valid in the context of good game design and benefits to the players, and pass them along. It's not the job of the community to pick one side and create a 10-point summary for submission.

ANet is human, and if they make mistakes designing the game, the first people to find out are usually the players. Updates shouldn't be taken as 'god moves in mysterious ways!' when they don't seem to make sense - you play the game, you know what works, so if an update is messed up, why shouldn't you relay that?

If the CR team can't distinguish ordinary whining over things being moved from the status quo and potentially useful or valid feedback/complaints regarding a change, then there are bigger problems than the community can fix.

StormDragonZ · Jun 21, 2008, 04:43 AM // 04:43

ANet's scared about something, and once again, they're not taking a single moment in time to directly ask people personal opinions.

Take a bunch of people who play PvP only, PvE only and those who play both, make a compare and contrast list, and check every few weeks after an update how the majority got affected, how it was handled and if it really made a difference at all.

Those who complain about 60% or more of the known changes in less than 24 hours should be considered the "weeds" of the community. Last thing we need is ANet listening to people who "enjoy" complaining about everything...

If you plan to make everyone happy, don't even bother. We don't live in a world where everyone likes the exact same solitary thing.

Kook~NBK~ · Jun 21, 2008, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I'm confused. One second the community is for XYZ change, and the next second against it. Does the community have any clue what they desire?

It's that different people are doing the complaining:

Quote:

Players complains about not being able to make money. The recent SF changes allow players to obtain gold easier. How is more players obtaining wealth bad? I don't understand how Joe Schmoe having FOW armor influences your gameplay. Joe Schmoe doesn't get any advantage over you. Armor only has a visual difference.

The people who complained about noit being able to make a lot of money were the poorer folks. The people who are complaining about the SF change generally are the ones with many ectos who are watching the value of their hard-earned treasures drop.

Quote:

Players got annoyed by PvP nerfs ruining PvE gameplay. Arena Net split them, and the community is upset. I don't know about you, but I enjoy my builds and skill combos being functional ALL THE TIME. I don't have the time to develop new builds and combos EVERY skill change.

It's not that they split the skills into 2 versions, it's how they did it.

Quote:

Players were sick and tired of the only emote belonging to HA. Arena Net added a new emote, and the community is outraged.

What made many people mad here is not the granting of an emote, but the addition of an emote with a title that no one even asked for. Especially since there have been several petitions for emotes for such things as the KoaBD title track which has fallen on deaf ears.

Quote:

The community whines and moans over the dumbest changes. Changes that don't affect gameplay. Arena Net don't listen to us.

For some reason players here believe they have some divine right from Arena Net. When Arena Net doesn't respond, we get bent out of shape. Arena Net doesn't have the time to listen to every single players concerns.

What ever happened to just enjoying Guild Wars? Playing the game to have fun? Not to get a rare armor set, title, weapon. Players today don't seem to be enjoying the game.... Players are playing to max titles as efficiently as possible. Players are so desperate to max titles they even pay people to play the game for them.... What happened to the days when players treated each other with half an ounce of respect? I guess I could go back a few years.... Guild Wars seems to have become the trash can of the internet. After every pvp match trash talk is inevitable. If a new player has a question he is mocked.

Something needs to change.

I guess I'm praying that somehow the gw community can change. Maybe.... just maybe if we're lucky we can return to the old days of harmony. When players would help each other, and were friendly, and played the game for fun. When it didn't matter if you had cool weapons, or armor. Today people actually think these stuff matters. I don't know why, but for some reason people actually think the weapon and armor you equip on your character matters.... even though this stuff isn't real.

Sorry if my post comes off as a rant. I don't mean to. It's just annoying that everyday the threads on guru of whining grows. I know I've done my fair share of complaining and whining, but I've realized the error in my ways.

Well said!

Lord Sojar · Jun 21, 2008, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If the CR team can't distinguish ordinary whining over things being moved from the status quo and potentially useful or valid feedback/complaints regarding a change, then there are bigger problems than the community can fix.

And here lies the caveat of having CR explaining changes while not explaining original concept. The community can only fix what it empowers the company they support to take action on. As a whole, we are only as powerful as what is heard. No matter how many complaint threads we make, no matter how much we protest, we are but a small section of the "community", and we mustn't forget that, as hurtful as it may seem at times. The resentment you feel is felt by others, and if you send your complaints directly to ArenaNet via mail and email, that is 1000% more effective than any forum thread will ever be. But, effectiveness ends when a sympathetic ear is Van Gogh'ed.

Chthon · Jun 21, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxage

I'm confused. One second the community is for XYZ change, and the next second against it. Does the community have any clue what they desire?

1. You are mistaking the community for a monolithic entity that it's not. The people who are vocal against some recent changes are generally NOT the same people who supported those changes, and vice versa. Very few people are actually changing their positions.

2. You are mistaking people being upset with HOW something is implemented for people being upset that it was implemented at all. For example: I like the PvE/PvE Split. Short of completely redesigning the PvE monsters from the ground up, I think a split was the best option. However, I think a-net has done a really terrible job of implementing the split. PvE is filled with a few overbuffed skills, a slightly larger number of underbuffed skills that are still junk, and a whole bunch of major problems that haven't been addressed at all. Does that mean I've changed my position and I'm now against the split? NO! I'm still in favor of the split, I just want them to do it right.

Maria The Princess · Jun 21, 2008, 05:49 AM // 05:49

actually,

the poorer people can get ritcher, sincethey have access to ectos more easily, even if lets say they drop to 3k, they will have MORE of those 3k pieces. in normal conditions, lets say a UW farmer 55/ss will get about 2 ectos for a run. lets say a run takes 30 mins (everyone has their own speed, i can clear smites in 20 mins, some can faster some slower). so in 1 hour of farming a person who clears it gets 4 ectos, vs 10 that you can get with SF sin.

so... over a 30 mins time period: 2x5k=10k vs 5x3=15k. and they will never drop to 3k anyways, since the traders supply/demand. they get lower people buy, they go higher. they go higher farmers sell so they go back to lower.

the only people that get poorer are those who keep teh ectos for trading purpuses in their bank in stacks of 250. those are ritch enouth IMO to not whine about getting poorer. they can trade those ectos for any other unit anyday like Z keys, embraces etc

for a trading unit the best is to use Z keys, since those are stable 5k factions of 5 tournament points, so the price is less likely to drop down since it is a rate ANET decided on, and nobody can change it, therefor they will always be more stable in price.

pumpkin pie · Jun 21, 2008, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Ursan and Shadow Form are not that much of a problem for me, actually not a problem at all :P

this however is a problem to me and i think arena net should do something about it.

I am thinking the same thing as you Toxage, try looking in Sardelac, at all the suggestions possibly creating more QQ later.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 21, 2008, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raku Clayman

I totally agree with you. However, when was the game ever too hard? Challenging? Yes! Too hard? Never!

That is the hidden meaning behind what I said.

Quote:

This goes with my post above. It was fun, fun, fun, to figure out a way to beat a quest, mission, etc. by tweaking armor, weapons, and skills. That required intelligence. To me, there is nothing better than a game that requires a person to use their brain.

I agree with you on this, which is why I dislike the guides on wiki. I know its not possible, but I want a wiki that just has info on where the quests/locations/items are/can be found. I don't want guides telling me how to do things. And for those who will say "just don't use it" I don't and never will. BUT, people I in my guild/PuG teams will and want it done that way because they are morons and think that is the only and best way to do the quest/mission. And trust me, it does happen.

Onyx Blindbow · Jun 21, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

In the case of GW, no matter what you do ppl will always whine.

as soon as there is a buff that affects farming you will see a thread that says

"skill x" is "destroying the economy/guildwars/the ozone etc..."

what they usually mean is

Everyone can now farm not just the select few

UB was whined about for dumbing down factor, that was BS, the truth is that it was found to be the ULTIMATE team farm build and thus ppl clear DoA, UW and FoW and reap the rewards.. next thing? 100000000 QQ threads about it destroying the game etc...

SF gets buffed, ppl that couldn't perma before now can and UW gets hammered for ectos... next thing? 1000000 QQ threads about it destroying the game etc...

All the BS about game balance etc... means absolutely NOTHING, the game has been imbalanced for ages (look to ANY solo build previous as proof of that) the ONLY reason ppl whine is purely to do with farming.

Or maybe I am wrong and those ppl crying about ursan and SF just really lilke Fow, UW, DoA etc... so much that they just play there over and over again to enjoy the mission.

itsvictor · Jun 21, 2008, 06:53 AM // 06:53

I want to point out that it's supposed to be Anet DOESN'T (that's the operative word people change it in the thread title ffs) a lot of the time. Updates are, a lot of the time, slow and lackluster(Nerf Wounding strike recharge~_~). It gets done but it doesn't get done in a timely manner which pisses people off, like if someone borrowed money to you and said I'll give it back to you asap when you need it as well, which in their eyes is 6 months later(you'd be pretty pissed off amirite?). Yes while they did do things to get around the barriers of the game, i.e. skill version splitting they said was impossible at a point, it was done poorly(be more aggressive with pvp nerfs pl0x) so of course people will continue to whine. I'm not going to argue that Anet isn't a great company though their game direction at this point is failing. They could've taken our money and never updated, saying "HAHAHA YOU'RE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOED NOW!" People will always whine and cry about everything, however you have to realize in some instances they are right and should listen. A lot of things could have been implemented better in this game and remember we are the vocal minority.

Zonzai · Jun 21, 2008, 07:08 AM // 07:08

OP

A "community" is made up of a bunch of "individuals". Since "individuals" have "opinions" and those "opinions" differ from "individual" to "individual" other "individuals" get to read about lots of "opinions" on each issue... and then make posts like this for the rest of the "community" to suffer through.

I put quotation marks around some of the big words so that you would "remember" them and what they mean. Of course, this is assuming that you learned the meaning of these words back in 4th grade...

Sarcasm aside, I live in a country called the United States of America. It has it's ups and downs, it's major A holes and it's minor A holes. And sometimes I don't agree with the other A holes that live here. But nothing makes me pucker up and wince with pain quicker than seeing some A hole talk about how everybody else ought to see it his way.

The internet is kind of like that at times. Not that I am referring to any specific time in particular... *cough* *cough*

upier · Jun 21, 2008, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Change one thing, group A complains.
Change it back, group B complains.

This.

You are just looking at the outer circle (aka - the GW players) and making the assumption that we are a homogeneous group.

the_jos · Jun 21, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

I think most important is not listening to what people want, but why they want it.

In my job I encounter a lot of highly educated people who come with solutions while not even fully understanding the underlying problem.
They say: "we have found product X, this will solve our problem" and while that might be true it's my job to see if they are solving the problem or just a symptom of a problem.

I'm in such a situation right now where most people started to think in a certain solution and I will have a hard time telling my boss that it's not as easy as putting in some new software.
The solution they prefer deals with part of a much broader problem and the moment they will implement it we will face entirely different and bigger problems as organisation.

But this is not the role a CR should have.
The A-net CR person should identify the needs/wants of the GW community.
And try to specify it as much as possible.
He/she should then try to get a group of skilled community people together with a group of people at A-net who are able to determine if it's a problem or a symptom.

And there is the main problem. Who are the people in the community who understand the broad picture?
I'm working in a 100 man department and even for me it's sometimes difficult to find the best people to talk to on a certain subject.
Imagine having 1000 times as much people, each with an opinion about the subject.

A-net should listen to the community but be very careful about providing solutions based on the opinions of the majority.